Martyrs des nazis

Un polonais de 17 ans guillotine en Allemagne

http://www.stiftung-denkmal.de/jugendwebsite/r_pdf/walerjan.pdf

http://miasta.gazeta.pl/kielce/1,47262,3593270.html

translator on-line
http://translation2.paralink.com/lowres.asp

and film based on this true story

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102019/#comment

Thank you, Piotr.

Merci, Mercattore et Piotr, pour les histoires intéressants. Elles sont tristes, mais pas du tout surprenantes, comme Hitler aimait bien son Fallbeil. Ces deux jeunes sont héros, de même que tous les autres qui osèrent résister à la politique de ce tyran qui aurait voulu que nous finissions tous par parler allemand. Parmi les victimes du Fallbeil. il y a une Américaine, Mildred Fish-Harnack.

Olympe de Gouge a écrit:

Merci, Mercattore et Piotr, pour les histoires intéressants. Elles sont tristes, mais pas du tout surprenantes, comme Hitler aimait bien son Fallbeil. Ces deux jeunes sont héros, de même que tous les autres qui osèrent résister à la politique de ce tyran qui aurait voulu que nous finissions tous par parler allemand. Parmi les victimes du Fallbeil. il y a une Américaine, Mildred Fish-Harnack.

Bonjour Olympe

Excellent rappel : Mildred était membre de la branche Berlinoise de l'Orchestre Rouge

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestre_rouge

http://www.abebooks.fr/search/sortby/3/an/Trepper+/tn/+Grand+Jeu

Bien à vous

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Orchestra-V-E-Tarrant/dp/0471134392/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240160657&sr=8-2

Cette malheureuse Mildred Fish fut sans doute le seul citoyen américain guillotiné à ma connaissance.

Quoique Thomas Paine (un Anglais naturalisé Américain et député du Pas-de-Calais pendant 9 ans) condamné à mort ait manqué de peu de mettre son chef dans la lucarne en 1794, sauvé seulement par le coup de gong du 9 Thermidor.

Y-a-t'il eu d'autres américains ayant fréquenté la Veuve ?

... The actions of Congress got front-page coverage. Once Helmut was made a U.S. citizen, the American Ambassador to Germany tried everyway he could to secure clemency, but it did no good. Helmut Hirsch--"the stateless Jew," according to Nazi press releases--was beheaded at dawn on June 4, 1937. . . one of six million victims.

Titus_Pibrac a écrit:

Cette malheureuse Mildred Fish fut sans doute le seul citoyen américain guillotiné à ma connaissance.

Quoique Thomas Paine (un Anglais naturalisé Américain et député du Pas-de-Calais pendant 9 ans) condamné à mort ait manqué de peu de mettre son chef dans la lucarne en 1794, sauvé seulement par le coup de gong du 9 Thermidor.

Y-a-t'il eu d'autres américains ayant fréquenté la Veuve ?

bonjour,
trouvé ceci:
JASTUD (M.A.R.) femme de Butler, Américain, ex-noble, âgée de 27 ans, née à Richemont.(pendant la revoltion française)

pas d'autres precisions.

Dans le message ci dessus, Henker semble traiter les executes de la Rose Blanche de vils criminels sans valeur et applaudit leur execution sans delais... j'espere me tromper mais il serait bon de preciser quel est la signification exacte de ces propos.
Ca pourrait etre considere tres inflammatoire.

Comme vous, Bois de Justice, je suis impatient d'avoir les explications de Henker sur le sens de ses propos...

S'ils reflètent exactement la pensée de leur auteur, ce dernier se trompe de site et ferait bien d'aller poster ses propos ailleurs.

En lisant vite, ma première impression a été qu'il faisait référence aux exécuteurs. J'espère que cette impression était la bonne, que ces propos désignent bien les exécuteurs et non les exécutés.

Mon cher TOmas de l'Est, e message me semble très explicite au contraire et fait référence directe aux condamnés !

Bien que l'anglais de l'auteur soit tres mauvais, je lis:
La "traitre" Sophie Scholl dans sa cellule...
La justice etait expeditive en ces jours la pour ce genre de sac d'excrements criminels sans valeur.
Ca semble bien dirige vers les condamnes et pas le systeme "judiciaire" nazie. (Justice Nazie est une contradiction de termes)

Boisdejustice a écrit:

Dans le message ci dessus, Henker semble traiter les executes de la Rose Blanche de vils criminels sans valeur et applaudit leur execution sans delais... j'espere me tromper mais il serait bon de preciser quel est la signification exacte de ces propos.
Ca pourrait etre considere tres inflammatoire.

Sorry, Boisdejustice, but I`am not able to read nor understand sufficient french, exept of a couple of words, who may be similar to english words though....

Therefore I had to translate your Message either way into German or english language in order to understand and read it...

Here is, what the Online translater came up with, and it dont make any sense....:

In der Meldung oben, Henker scheint behandeln executes der Weißen Rose zutiefst ohne Verbrecher und begrüßt ihre execution unverzüglich ... Hoffentlich habe ich unrecht, aber es wäre gut, welches ist die genaue Bedeutung dieser Informationen.
Es könnte sehr entzündliche.

@Boisdejustice:
I have read in your profile, that you´re located in the good old US of A
....can you may write your message in english , please....

I would appreciate it very much so....

take care...

Beuh, ca sent la peste brune...

J'ai d'abord cru avoir mal lu, mais je pense moi aussi que le sieur Henker traite les partisans de la Rose Blanche de traîtres et de sacs à merde...

Dès que nous aurons confirmation, ce sera Raus. Mais pas question de commettre une erreur, je veux d'abord entendre le fautif et qu'il s'explique.

Henker:

Your message wording seemed to indicate that you considered the members of the White Rose as "Worthless Scumbags" that deserved what they got. As I wrote I hope I misunderstood the meaning of your message and that the insult was intended for the worthless nazi scumbags that put on the sham trial and fallbeil assassination of these people whose religious conscience prompted them to protest and resist the policies of the Nazi regime. I just want to clear up any misunderstanding.

Most of the readers and the webmaster of this forum being French, some of the nuances in the English language may escape them, so I had to bring to their attention what the message sounded like, whether intentional or not. We are a non-political forum aimed at discussions around the guillotine, the death penalty and related subject matters. A controversial subject such as the defense of the Nazi actions/policies during WW2, or an attack on people considered martyrs of the Nazi regime would not belong here.

The Webmaster of the forum has requested that you clarify your position in regard to the above statements to make sure we are all in agreement about the rules of posting here.

Boisdejustice a écrit:

Bien que l'anglais de l'auteur soit tres mauvais, je lis:
La "traitre" Sophie Scholl dans sa cellule...
La justice etait expeditive en ces jours la pour ce genre de sac d'excrements criminels sans valeur.
Ca semble bien dirige vers les condamnes et pas le systeme "judiciaire" nazie. (Justice Nazie est une contradiction de termes)

'Scumbag pourrait se traduire par "sac à merde". c'est très violent et très péjoratif ! Je n'ose pas penser que Monsieur Henker , "le bourreau" nourrit quelque sympathie pour les bourreaux nazis. Dans ce cas, il n'a rien à faire dans ce forum....

Amitiés à tous

I hope there is only the" Henker's" language mistake or our wrong interpretation of his intentions....

Bonsoir.

Extremement desagreable, ce post sur la Rose Blanche. Certains ont considere que ces activistes etaient un peu inconscients par rapport a
qui ils s'attaquaient, mais "scumbag" est un terme franchement revoltant pour qualifier des opposants au nazisme. J'attends avec interet l'explication de Henker, et je dois l'avouer, avec aussi une certaine aprehension... Car j'ai lu des choses tres similaires sur certains forums, ou meme sur Youtube, ou les thuriferaires du fascime sont legions.

Henker a répondu, mi en anglais, mi en allemand; ce que j'ai compris ne me laisse peu de doute sur ses funestes sympathies. Peut on tout de même avoir une traduction claire en françis de son précédent massage qui pourraît être le dernier ?

Le reponse de Henker ci-dessus est simplement une traduction automatique de mon message en Allemand et il dit qu'il ne le comprend pas et me demande de re-poster en Anglais ce que j'ai fait tres clairement. Il n'a pas repondu a mon message mais il a ajoute 4 nouveaux messages sur diverses executions en Allemagne avant et apres la guerre.

Sa maitrise de l'Anglais n'est pas parfaite malgre l'usage d'idiomes tres Americains comme "scumbag" and "good old US of A"" (Je pense qu'il est Allemand) et je peux lui donner le benefice du doute a un certain degre mais il devrait bientot repondre a mon message puisqu'il m'a demande de le poster en Anglais.

J'espère qu'il s'agit d'une méprise !!
Sinon j'aurai mal à l'âme. Comment peut-on traiter aussi vilement une jolie jeune femme morte en martyr. Rappelons que son "crime" avait été de distribuer des tracts anti-III reich.
Et elle en est morte, non pas exécutée mais assassinée comme tant d'autres pendant ces périodes de démence humaine !

A ce sujet, je remets un lien du forum histoire d'honorer leur mémoire:
https://guillotine.1fr1.net/la-veuve-f1/martyrs-des-nazis-t115.htm#2152

God damned...

here we go again....

OK, Folks, here is some knowledge and facts about the "White rose":

They were students in Munich, born, as fare Sophie and Hans Scholl
concerns in Ulm
( The Town were Erwin Rommel comes from and the town with the tallest
Church Tower)

Anyhow... The father of Sophie and Hans Scholl was a communist, and he got already punished for his behavior but still carried on with adjutating...

In my consideration, he was the reason and he triggered for what was coming and the ultimate fate for his 2 children....

But lets put it real:
Hans and Sophie Scholl were "living on the sunny side" in Germany doing wartime.,... they were students and nothing to suffer, and with a bright future once graduating...
and all this for free, because attending University is free in Germany,
or basicly was free until couple of years ago...

Why they got into this political crap?
all what they accomplished was, to destroy their own lives, the live of their friends, and the live of their parents who had to morn them....

just beeing stupid, plan simple stupid, and this goes more for Sophie Scholl rather than her brother Hans.... he was already "Toast", once he got caught....

The Police officier, who interrigated Sophie wanted to safe her, and all what she had to do is to comply with it....
of course, she might be facing jail, prison, but what the heck,
she would be only doing "Hard time" for 2 years...
once the Führer would "kick the bucket", she, Sophie would Kick the cell door into freedom...

I have no pitty for them ...
they were knowing, what they will receive, once they get caught,....
they played the dangerous gamble, and they lost....
they also were aware about the death penalty as punishment for their crimes, and doing 1942/1943 until 1945 it was a crime, what they committted...

just as an example...
If I will throw an egg towards the president of the US,
I will face years and yeras and yeras in federal prison,
doing hard time....
because throwing something against an president is considered an assult, and its beeing punished with loooooooog time in prison...
So, if I would do this, it is my decision, and nobody forced me to do this....right????

and not forget to mention, how arrogant they were in Court...
matterfact the judge had no other choice to convict these
unrepentant people though...
(Every judge, and this goes worldwide, likes remorseful defendants)
The scholls were just ignorant and stupid, and they paid for it,
a high price....

and lets put it real:

Every nation has their own "Package to carry", and their own secrets, and every nation has times, when there was harsh sentenses, and every nation has their own black marks in history, or even in presents times....

France had their own little imperator and conquer: Napoleon,
and doing his time, there were harsh sentenses too....
France also had their colonies in North Africa, and the didn't played a nice game there either

England had colonies and plutokratie....
and they committed horrorable war crimes too....
Bombing of Dresden in February 1945
and England was first, in bombing.... they bombed Berlin in the Spring of 1940, what triggered the bombing of London in Summer and Fall of 1940

even Poland committed horrable crimes against german people in Lemberg in 1921 (or 1922)...the so called bloody sunday

America executed in 1862 in Dakota 38 innocent Indians, at a time,
when the famous Mr. Lincoln was president
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862
...not forget to mention George W. Bush

So.... I come to the conclusion, that no nation is better than the other....

every Nation has their own black marks, and human beings just like to fight....

So, I conclude the discussion about Sophie and Hans Scholl, as fare as I'am concerned...

Grüße...

Okay. Let's talk seriously.

I agree, no country is better than others. But some are worse, especially when they live under the kind of regime which is called dictature... An almighty leader using terror and violence to keep control of his nation, one and only one political party, warmongering, armed soldiers at every corner of every street... Germany in the 30's and 40's was one of them. So was France when Napoléon was emperor, or Mussolini's Italy, or Franco's Spain, or many more. Some horrible places at these times, some indelible stains on our countries' History.

I already said I don't like politics. I distrust political parties, left-wing or right-wing, and I despise far-right and far-left ideas. In every case, all they want is to restrain freedom. The essence of my life being freedom, I can't tolerate it. I'm pretty much a libertarian.

So, the Scholls were communists ? That was, a contrario, a fact to applaude in a country full of moronic antisemitic book-burners goose-steppers. And it was their father's heritage ? Big deal. Mine taught me to appreciate Genesis as one of the greatest bands of all time ! Fathers teach their kids what they know, what they believe in, and our education is, after all, the basis of the adult we become someday.
As a matter of fact, I don't approve communism, but I'm not going to bash somebody's head because he thinks differently than me.

You say "They were living on the sunny side" : so, because they were fortunate enough to avoid being sent on the Russia's front or in occupied France, you think they should have keep their mouths shut ? They deliberately refuse to remain silent, even at the costs of their lives ? It's even more beautiful. Gambling with your own life can be seen as stupidity. I see that as courage : courage to stand still against the masses, to have his own thoughts and not saying "Heil Hitler" just because everybody else say it !

I already said too my opinions about death penalty. I think some current criminals should be beheaded : that would not bring one single tear in my eyes. BUT only murderers ! Never for a political reason ! Never ! The difference of opinion is one of the only remaining things that keeps the humanity interesting, but it should be a way to provoke dialog, not war or capital punishment !

So, it seems that you're in the wrong place, M. Henker, to express your advice. I'm pretty sure, on other circumstances, you may want to kill each and every other member of our Forum because they don't share your politics. Here, we talk about guillotine, and executioners, and crime stories. That's all. Here, some of us are against DP, others vote for, some praise Sarkozy or Thatcher, and others praise Royal or Lula, but we're still friends and part of the Forum altogether. None of us like murderers, but we all agree that Resistants guillotined in France from 1941 to 1943 or the Scholl siblings were martyrs, not criminals, and their memories should be respected, just because they die for nothing but a difference of opinion !

Kindly leave, now.

Sylvain, tu as tout dit et parfaitement résumé l'esprit des membres de ce forum. (Putain, non seulement tu écris bien, tu chantes bien, mais en plus tu t'exprimes parfaitement bien dans la langue de Shakespeare !! ':cheers:')

Mister Henker, our administrator summarized well the general opinion of the members of this forum. We know well the story of the Scholl, they have surely a nice childhood. But they found the courage to oppose, to resist, to stand up against the dictatorship. They tried to wake the consciousnesses.
It was not a game or a gamble. They knew the risks, yes ! But what a courage !!! I didn't have the bollocks to do that !!!
For me these peoples are Heroes and surely not "scumbags" (what a shame !!)

Don't forget the journalist who dared to throw his shoes in face of George W. Bush. He did not stay in jail !!

I think the disscusion with Henker is the waste of time.
No place in our forum for such opinions. That is all