Reférences livres

Bonjour Tous le Monde

I have been an avid reader of the forum for some time but haven't had the time to make a contribution. I hope you will welcome me to the Forum and I hope I can contribute and give something back for all the information you have supplied. I can read French no problem but I am not going to massacre your beautiful language by trying to write in it so I hope you don't mind me writing in English.
A small bit of news to start. Robert Fredrick Opie is releasing a paperback version of his book: "The Timbers of Justice" on the 25th of May. It will be a much updated version of the hardback which came out in 2003.
A perliminary review (written by me) reads:

"Not since Alistair Kershaw' 'History of the Guillotine' (published in 1958) has there been an author who has done as much research as Robert Opie. Tapping into sources unavailable to others he has uncovered secrets that this "Widow" has unto now kept to herself. He has dived head first into the basket which once contained the bodies of the freshly decapitated victims, rummaged around and there found the stories, mechanics and factual details which were it not for his persistence and determination may have disappeared forever with the bloody wood. If you have ever shown any interest in the guillotine whatsoever then read this book. It dispels with all the myth and fabrication you may have read about in previous publications and presents before you, on the tilting table of death the true history of these 'Timbers of Justice' "

Regards

David

Bienvenu a bord, David.

Je comprend que la nouvelle edition du livre de Robert Opie va etre publiee le 25 Mai? J'ai la premiere version et je peux tous vous assurer qu'il vaut la lecture, malgre quelques petites erreurs qui vont etre corrigees dans la nouvelle edition.
La premiere edition etait epuisee l'annee derniere mais Robert m'a envoye une copie. Pour ceux qui ne l'ont pas lu, en voici la chance.

Il y a quelques photos de ses maquettes de guillotine sous le sujet consacre aux modelisme.

Comme vous voyez, contrairement a David, je n'hesite pas a massacrer la langue Francaise.

Hi Michael

Thanks for the welcome! Oh but if I could write French like that! You'd think I could having spent six years there! In one ear and out the other. I am hoping to get over to Robert in Girvan, Scotland for the release of his book on the 25th of May and also to pick up "Big Frankie". For the benefit of those that don't know "Big Frankie" is a custom made model guillotine Robert made for me based in part on the Hammer House movie "Frankstein Created Woman" I wanted something that could make short work of Barbie and Ken and that would lean towards the "fantastical" Hollywood depection of guillotines rather than the real thing. Hoping to see you Michael later this year, perhaps I can collect another one from the orphanage while I am there!
I have a few pics of Big Frankie on: http://www.myspace.com/guillotines
Click on "View my pics". Oh and in case you are wondering if what is says on my "MySpace" site is true, well yes, it is true, I have
" 0 friends "

Can I take this opportunity to recommend the book "Guillotine" (formerly known by its hardback title: "The Timbers of Justice") which was published in paperback by Sutton press this year. As a personal friend to the author I can confirm that his research has been exaustive and he is one of world's authorities on the mechanics of the machine.
You can find it at amazon on:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/o/ASIN/075094403X/ref=s9_asin_image_1/026-2730793-2010005

Cheers,

Irish Molly :alien:

Hello Dededu,

Have you read the paperback or the original version? I know Robert made quite a few corrections in the second edition. I also found a lot of inaccurate facts in the first version and I have not had a chance to read the revised one.

I think the errors are all in the first edition and Robert told me he had corrected them in the new edition.

I noted (and told him) among other things that Mirabeau, LaFayette and Necker were all said to have been guillotined (None of them were). The dates of several events as described above are mixed up and some of the picture captions are erroneous (Date of the Valence execution noted as 1910 and one picture of the dismantled 1907 guillotine captionned as "an older guillotine" from the 19th Century). There are also quite a few small errors in the Kershaw book, the Gerould book and the even the Jaeger books.

I have ordered the new version and I will let you know if the errors have been corrected.

The book is very interesting nevertheless and there are some great pictures in the new paperback.

Yes, Robert made a few errors in the first edition, which he readily admitted. No doubt corrected in the newer version.

Several years ago (circa 1981) I wrote to Alister Kershaw via his London publisher.

He was kind enough to reply and give his address in Paris. He was the first to admit that his book was not a serious study of the subject and he gave me Jacques Delarue's home address.

He advised me to write to JD in French, which I decided not to, as it is not up to standard.

I wrote back to AK a few years ago, however the letter was returned. I suspect he is deceased ?

While I agree with you that those are BIG errors I still think the author did some good research in regard to the design and history of the machine.
The names of Mirabeau, Necker and LaFayette are just part of a general sentence (Page 14) about the Revolution turning on it's own and the facts were obviously not researched at all.

Robert does not directly state dates of their "executions" or "fake" facts about them.

There is enough mystery and folklore surrounding the guillotine that there is always a risk of finding false information mixed in with facts in every book and article written on the subject.

Here are a few of those questionable facts:

Guillotin being himself guillotined
Louis the XVI having such a thick neck it took three drops to cut off his head (Same story with Gorguloff in 1932...)
Robespierre being guillotined face up
The original Paris guillotine being sent to the Bagne in Ile du Diable
And even the botched Lefebre execution story on Sylvain's site (which I think is a post autopsy photo, sensationalized by "Le Crapouillot")
and my own favorite the "Veteau and Martin 1933 execution film"

Always better to check everything twice...

[quote="Boisdejustice"]While I agree with you that those are BIG errors I still think the author did some good research in regard to the design and history of the machine.
The names of Mirabeau, Necker and LaFayette are just part of a general sentence (Page 14) about the Revolution turning on it's own and the facts were obviously not researched at all.

Robert does not directly state dates of their "executions" or "fake" facts about them.
==============================================

Practically the are only a few books about guillotine in all the world.
Opie made a good job :-)))))))))))))))))

Hi Folks

It is indeed a bit confusing with the "Look Inside" option on Amazon as what they are "looking inside" is the first Hardback copy which was called "Timbers of Justice" which has indeed got errors. Robert corrected them all for the paperback (called just "Guillotine") and added some extra information. I have read the paperback and did not find any errors in it. Sure there is probably not much in the book that all regular users of this forum would not know already but for people who are just coming to the guillotine for the first time it is a great overall view of its history. I don't think Kershaw's book is still in print, maybe I am wrong but if it isn't then it is is good that Robert's book is out there and that Sutton agreed to print it as there are not too many publishers who will touch the subject of the death penalty mechanics. Robert's book has alredy been translated and released in other European countries including Estonia if I am not mistaken.

Thanks for your feedback

Irish Molly

released in other European countries including Estonia if I am not mistaken.

and also in Czech Republik
http://www.kosmas.cz/knihy/124641/gilotina/

Thanks for your feedback

I met Jacques Delarue a few weeks ago and he said that Kershaw was indeed dead since fifteen or twenty years.

I'll have to buy a copy of R.F.Opie's book : definitely !

And, to take his defense, errors in these kind of historical books are unfortunately inevitable. I think there are some in my Desfourneaux', because it's a real tough job to know what is true and what is wrong in the guillotine subject !

Bonsoir.

J'ai signale il y a quelques temps un livre sur la Guillotine, vu a Cambridge. Il s'agit de:
"Guillotine: its legend and lore"
Auteur: Daniel Genoud.
Editeur: Blast Books

C'est en anglais mais je pense que ca ne sera un probleme...
Je ne sais pas si l'auteur est francais...
Il y a des choses interessantes, en particulier sur l'Allemagne, dont un des derniers bourreaux officiait encore avec un masque sur le visage, et maniait la hache et la Fallbeil, ceci vers la fin des annees 40...

Henri

The last execution on guillotine was in West Germany about 1949,
in the East Germany in 1965-1966(?)
Probably more information you can find in this book....
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/images/0140259279/ref=dp_image_0/303-6394542-2794648?ie=UTF8&n=52044011&s=books-intl-de

Hi Piotr.

I have seen this book too, some years ago. I think I 've read somewhere that the Fallbeil was in use in East Germany until1968.
Concerning the illustration on the cover of this book, it is said inside that there's something wrong : either the scaffold, the fact it was public, or the shape of the axe, I can't remember...But the executioner seems to be correctly drawn!

Regards.
Henri

Bonjour à tous,
Me suis procuré récemment chez un bouquiniste le livre suivant :
"La Guillotine et les Exécuteurs des Arrêts Criminels pendant la Révolution", auteur : G. Lenôtre, Librairie Académique Perrin, PARIS,
1922.
Vous connaissez sans doute, sinon, il vaut la peine, c'est de la "petite histoire" bien écrite, et qui couvre une période antérieure à celle étudiée par le site de Sylvain.
Disponible sur Internet (Abebooks), à un prix raisonnable.
Bonne journée et bonne année 2007.

L'avez-vous commencé? Est-ce intéressant?

Il s'agit à coup sûr de la période la plus "fructueuse" des exécuteurs.

Bonsoir,
Non seulement je l'ai commencé...mais je l'ai fini, il est vrai que la météo se prête à la lecture.C'est intéressant, malgré quelques redites, et ce qui est le plus curieux sont les renseignements relatifs aux exécuteurs de province de cette époque, on y retrouve déjà des noms comme Berger ou Desfourneaux qui feront parler d'eux assez longtemps ( Plus de 150 ans pour Desfourneaux.)

GOT IT! Thank you for pointing it out. This book is difficult to find.

Anatole Deibler, l'homme qui trancha 400 têtes
Carnets d'exécutions
Anatole Deibler, profession bourreau
20 têtes à couper
La Veuve ou l'histoire des châtiments
Tragédie à Clairveaux
Abattoir solennel
Tu ne tueras pas
Dans 5 heures, je verrai Jésus
Les derniers bourreaux
Carnets noirs du bourreau
Plus jamais d'échafaud
+ tous les livres concernant Christian Ranucci

...c'est ce que je possède pour le moment. Est-ce que vous pourriez me conseiller d'autres lectures intéressantes ? Je suis toute ouïe car mon imagination est épuisée à ce sujet et je ne connais pas d'autres auteurs...Merci d'avance !

Eh bien, chère consoeur, quelle bibliothèque...
Au niveau des auteurs, et ce que j'écris n'engage que moi, je serai un peu réticent envers Montarron ( Bon journaliste grand public, mais pas trop historien ), Jean Egen, et tout ce qui tourne autour de J.Fesch.Pas grand chose d'honnête non plus sur Buffet/Bontems.
Sinon, j'ai signalé sur le forum un livre sur "La Guillotine et les Exécuteurs pendant la Révolution ", de 1925, trouvé sans difficulté chez Abebooks.C'est certes de la "petite histoire", mais ça se lit agréablement.
Bonne soirée à vous.

Chantal, re-bonsoir, c'est encore moi
L'auteur du livre dont je viens de vous parler dans mon dernier message
est " G. Lenôtre "
Merci de mettre cet oubli sur le compte de la fatigue.
AP.

Hi, bonjour Chantal...
--Bienvenue.....

-Si vous lisez l'anglais, il y a aussi l'ouvrage de Robert OPIE... "Guillotine, The timbers of Justice".....

-Amitiés!...
-Bernard.


-L'accusé est donc coupable..... Son avocat vous convainquera mieux que moi!!!.....

Bonjour à toutes et à tous !
Vous signale l'existence d'un livre introuvable pour l'instant dans le commerce ( Epuisé éditeur , réimpression non prévue ) sauf à investir 150 € chez un bouquiniste US via AbeBooks mais qui se trouve sans trop de problèmes dans les bibliothèques publiques ( Trouvé à Caen, Argentan , Versailles , mais il doit être ailleurs...)
Daniel ARASSE
" La Guillotine et l'imaginaire de La Terreur "
Ed. Flammarion, 1987.
Comme l'indique le titre, il couvre la période révolutionnaire.
Bon week-end

J'ai acheté ce livre il y a 11 ans, la première édition en espagnol (1989). Á mon avis un livre magnifique. Si je pourrais m'exprimer bien en français je vous ferais un comentaire, mais seulement je peus vous dire qu'est un livre sérieux et très bien documenté, il y a 373 notes (références et citations) et cinq apendixes à la fin du livre et d'autres citations sur les chapitres. Il traite des aspects variés (historiques, politiques, psicològiques, fisiològiques, théâtrales, machinales et plus) relationés avec la guillotine, ses serviteurs, le condamné et le public. Et par les termes et les formes d'expression utilisés je pense que la traduction espagnole doit avoir été faite rigoureusement.

La traduction au français d'une citation de J. Joubert dans le livre, serait:
D'où venez-vous, mesdemoiselles? - Maman, nous venons de voir guillotiner; ah mon Dieu, que ce pauvre bourreau a eu de peine !