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 The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!

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piotr
rottger
Boisdejustice
7 participants
AuteurMessage
piotr
Charles-Henri Sanson
piotr


Nombre de messages : 2989
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyMer 14 Mar 2007 - 19:08

http://katowice.naszemiasto.pl/wydarzenia/705930.html

The information from Polish daily newspaper:
According to the article , during nazi occupation of Poland the fallbeill called "red widow" was used ( in Katowice prison) from 9 th October 1941 but the last execution was 22th Jan 1945.(Earlier prisoners were guillotined in Breslau) There were executed 552 people
( including 53 women and also a few teenagers) mostly members of resistance.The executions were in the night ( 22pm-24pm and often multiples) in the special ,white-tiled execution room, today non existing The convicted prisoners after "toilette" were dressed in paper skirts. Each execution lasted for 3-4 minutes. Dead corpses were transferred to the crematory in KL Auschwitz(about 50 km from Katowice)
The fallbeill is 235 cm high, bascule is 136 cm long,blade-51 kg; there is also receptable for the head 41x51 cm .
The hangman August Koestner commited suicide....
In the last days of the occupation the guillotine was burried by Germans in Katowice's cementary(sic!) but was unearthed by locals soon.Later ,for many years,fallbelil was stored in Police headquarters in Katowice and practically forgotten by all; in the end transferred to the Museum KL Auschwitz-Birkenau where is now stored but not exposed(only for special groups. Probably(according to the words custodian of the museum) in the future it will be part of permanent exhibition open for all visitors. Now, there is a kind of the small rivalry between museum in Auschwitz anf Museum of History Katowice for such unusual exhibit.

Katowice prison-today
http://www.us.edu.pl/katowice/informator/ilustr/z0312.jpg
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Boisdejustice
Monsieur de Paris
Boisdejustice


Nombre de messages : 1459
Age : 67
Localisation : USA
Emploi : Ingenieur
Date d'inscription : 29/01/2006

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyJeu 15 Mar 2007 - 4:56

Definitely another Tegel type machine.
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http://boisdejustice.com
rottger
Aide non qualifié



Nombre de messages : 23
Localisation : USA
Emploi : Historian, Writer
Date d'inscription : 19/03/2007

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyMar 20 Mar 2007 - 5:52

piotr a écrit:
http://katowice.naszemiasto.pl/wydarzenia/705930.html

The information from Polish daily newspaper:
According to the article , during nazi occupation of Poland the fallbeill called "red widow" was used ( in Katowice prison) from 9 th October 1941 but the last execution was 22th Jan 1945.(Earlier prisoners were guillotined in Breslau) There were executed 552 people
( including 53 women and also a few teenagers) mostly members of resistance.The executions were in the night ( 22pm-24pm and often multiples) in the special ,white-tiled execution room, today non existing The convicted prisoners after "toilette" were dressed in paper skirts. Each execution lasted for 3-4 minutes. Dead corpses were transferred to the crematory in KL Auschwitz(about 50 km from Katowice)
The fallbeill is 235 cm high, bascule is 136 cm long,blade-51 kg; there is also receptable for the head 41x51 cm .
The hangman August Koestner commited suicide....
In the last days of the occupation the guillotine was burried by Germans in Katowice's cementary(sic!) but was unearthed by locals soon.Later ,for many years,fallbelil was stored in Police headquarters in Katowice and practically forgotten by all; in the end transferred to the Museum KL Auschwitz-Birkenau where is now stored but not exposed(only for special groups. Probably(according to the words custodian of the museum) in the future it will be part of permanent exhibition open for all visitors. Now, there is a kind of the small rivalry between museum in Auschwitz anf Museum of History Katowice for such unusual exhibit.

Katowice prison-today
http://www.us.edu.pl/katowice/informator/ilustr/z0312.jpg
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
rottger
Aide non qualifié



Nombre de messages : 23
Localisation : USA
Emploi : Historian, Writer
Date d'inscription : 19/03/2007

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Katowice fallbeil/Koster   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyMar 20 Mar 2007 - 6:03

piotr a écrit:
http://katowice.naszemiasto.pl/wydarzenia/705930.html

The information from Polish daily newspaper:
According to the article , during nazi occupation of Poland the fallbeill called "red widow" was used ( in Katowice prison) from 9 th October 1941 but the last execution was 22th Jan 1945.(Earlier prisoners were guillotined in Breslau) There were executed 552 people
( including 53 women and also a few teenagers) mostly members of resistance.The executions were in the night ( 22pm-24pm and often multiples) in the special ,white-tiled execution room, today non existing The convicted prisoners after "toilette" were dressed in paper skirts. Each execution lasted for 3-4 minutes. Dead corpses were transferred to the crematory in KL Auschwitz(about 50 km from Katowice)
The fallbeill is 235 cm high, bascule is 136 cm long,blade-51 kg; there is also receptable for the head 41x51 cm .
The hangman August Koestner commited suicide....
In the last days of the occupation the guillotine was burried by Germans in Katowice's cementary(sic!) but was unearthed by locals soon.Later ,for many years,fallbelil was stored in Police headquarters in Katowice and practically forgotten by all; in the end transferred to the Museum KL Auschwitz-Birkenau where is now stored but not exposed(only for special groups. Probably(according to the words custodian of the museum) in the future it will be part of permanent exhibition open for all visitors. Now, there is a kind of the small rivalry between museum in Auschwitz anf Museum of History Katowice for such unusual exhibit.

Katowice prison-today
http://www.us.edu.pl/katowice/informator/ilustr/z0312.jpg

Thanks for the interesting information Piotr. The scharfrichter identified as August "Koestner" probably is "August Koster", an assistant to Frederich Hehr who was hired in 1943 as an lead executioner. Koster (or Koestner) beheaded 579 people according to the post-war records published by Fr. Harald Polchau, chaplin of Plotzensee. The paper "skirts" probably are paper "shirts" which were long, paper garments typically worn by condemned prisons in Breslau, Brandenburg and other locations.
Do you have a photo of the fallbeil as it now looks in KZ Aushwitz? From the news photo, it clearly is a Tegel-type design similar to the one exhibited in Pancraz Prison, Prague.
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piotr
Charles-Henri Sanson
piotr


Nombre de messages : 2989
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyMer 21 Mar 2007 - 17:25

Probably below is the picture fallbeill from Katowice

http://www1.ipn.gov.pl/download.php?s=1&id=2499
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piotr
Charles-Henri Sanson
piotr


Nombre de messages : 2989
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptySam 26 Nov 2011 - 21:21

http://www.eolkusz.pl/2010/08/gilotyna-w-muzeum-auschwitz-birkenau/
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piotr
Charles-Henri Sanson
piotr


Nombre de messages : 2989
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyVen 11 Jan 2013 - 19:59

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! 158995_IMG_4847_4
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CARNIFEX
Monsieur de Paris
CARNIFEX


Nombre de messages : 1848
Age : 53
Localisation : Angers(Maine et Loire)
Emploi : Justice
Date d'inscription : 20/02/2006

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptySam 12 Jan 2013 - 19:58

Brrrr!! affraid

La lumière électrique rend la photo encore plus actuelle.

_________________
Potius mori quam foedari
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Invité
Invité




The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyLun 14 Jan 2013 - 9:04

CARNIFEX a écrit:
Brrrr!! affraid

La lumière électrique rend la photo encore plus actuelle.

Exact, sous cet éclairage, c'est lugubre.   affraid
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Adelayde
Admin
Admin
Adelayde


Nombre de messages : 5716
Localisation : Pays d'Arles
Date d'inscription : 02/03/2009

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyLun 14 Jan 2013 - 11:48

piotr a écrit:
The fallbeill is 235 cm high […] blade-51 kg
La photo montre qu'effectivement les montants de la machine sont courts. Est-ce que, malgré le poids du couperet (51 kg), cela posait problème pour la décapitation ?

_________________
"L’art est le cordon ombilical qui nous rattache au divin" - Nikolaus Harnoncourt
(Note du forum:Adelayde, notre administratrice, est décédée le 1er mars 2018 The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! 741545 )
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Coupe-Coupe
Bourreau départemental
Coupe-Coupe


Nombre de messages : 279
Age : 71
Date d'inscription : 14/08/2012

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyLun 14 Jan 2013 - 21:21

Adelayde, je ne pense pas que cela posait un réel problème, car sauf erreur de ma part, si la lame faisait 51 kg, elle n'était pas fixée à un mouton en bois comme sur la guillotine Française, mais à un ensemble métallique (avec des bras) qui chutait avec elle, le tout pesant entre 61 et 68 kg......! affraid

A vérifier cependant ! Smile
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CARNIFEX
Monsieur de Paris
CARNIFEX


Nombre de messages : 1848
Age : 53
Localisation : Angers(Maine et Loire)
Emploi : Justice
Date d'inscription : 20/02/2006

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyMar 15 Jan 2013 - 21:28

Cela ne posait aucun problème car la faible hauteur était compensée par un poids bien plus important.

Regardez sur le site de boisdejustice. On voit bien que la lame était fixée à une masse métallique pesante, qui se prolongeait sur les côtés.

_________________
Potius mori quam foedari
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piotr
Charles-Henri Sanson
piotr


Nombre de messages : 2989
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyLun 21 Avr 2014 - 13:53

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Z15819700Q,Gilotyna-przechowywana-w-Panstwowym-Muzeum-Auschwi
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pier
Monsieur de Paris
pier


Nombre de messages : 642
Age : 42
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Date d'inscription : 27/03/2014

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyLun 21 Avr 2014 - 18:51

La machine a réellement servie ?
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piotr
Charles-Henri Sanson
piotr


Nombre de messages : 2989
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! EmptyJeu 26 Jan 2017 - 5:27

pier a écrit:
La machine a réellement servie ?

I don't know, I don't think so but from June 2015 is on display in Silesian museum in Katowice
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The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty
MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   The shadow of the "Red Widow"  !!! Empty

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